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	<title>Comments on: Islamophobia: Bad For The Jews</title>
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		<title>By: Jon Harrison</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-104112</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-104112</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not defending Wilders per se, nor am I asserting that he personally is a defender of free speech. What I am saying is that the state should not be prosecuting anyone for his or her opinions. We may deplore or dislike what Wilders has to say, but that doesn&#039;t mean it rises to the level of yelling fire in a crowded theater. If the state can silence Wilders, then one day it may decide to silence you or me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not defending Wilders per se, nor am I asserting that he personally is a defender of free speech. What I am saying is that the state should not be prosecuting anyone for his or her opinions. We may deplore or dislike what Wilders has to say, but that doesn&#8217;t mean it rises to the level of yelling fire in a crowded theater. If the state can silence Wilders, then one day it may decide to silence you or me.</p>
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		<title>By: anon in dc</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-104100</link>
		<dc:creator>anon in dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-104100</guid>
		<description>Yes, I agree.  I tend to be frustrated by the view that opposition to war in Iran or Iraq has to go with a fervent  embrace of immigration fueled multiculturalism.  But you&#039;re right, you&#039;re not expressing that.  I&#039;m not a Catholic, but I kind of sense the current Pope is expressing something like my POV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I agree.  I tend to be frustrated by the view that opposition to war in Iran or Iraq has to go with a fervent  embrace of immigration fueled multiculturalism.  But you&#8217;re right, you&#8217;re not expressing that.  I&#8217;m not a Catholic, but I kind of sense the current Pope is expressing something like my POV.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Luban</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103973</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Luban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103973</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I&#039;m not sure how much we&#039;re disagreeing so much as talking past each other. I am by no means saying that there is nothing at all troubling about the rise of radical Islam in Europe (although, again, I would argue that the scale of the phenomenon is widely exaggerated, particularly in the U.S. media.) On issues like the Danish cartoon controversy, for example, I actually take a position close to many on the right. While I don&#039;t particularly believe that Europeans should go out of their way to antagonize and offend Muslims, the cartoon controversy does present a clear free speech issue.

But none of this affects the basic point of my post, which is that U.S. Islamophobes are getting in bed with some very unsavory people. If you concede that Fallaci and Phillips are guilty of &quot;bigotry and Islamophobia,&quot; isn&#039;t this unquestionably more true of Dewinter and Wilders? If we are genuinely concerned to staunch the spread of radical Islam and defend &quot;liberal values&quot; in Europe, isn&#039;t making common cause with bigots the worst possible way to do so? Making Wilders the face of the movement simply sends the message that it is not radical Islam but Islam as such that we see as the enemy, and seems like a surefire way to alienate the very people that we want to win over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I&#8217;m not sure how much we&#8217;re disagreeing so much as talking past each other. I am by no means saying that there is nothing at all troubling about the rise of radical Islam in Europe (although, again, I would argue that the scale of the phenomenon is widely exaggerated, particularly in the U.S. media.) On issues like the Danish cartoon controversy, for example, I actually take a position close to many on the right. While I don&#8217;t particularly believe that Europeans should go out of their way to antagonize and offend Muslims, the cartoon controversy does present a clear free speech issue.</p>
<p>But none of this affects the basic point of my post, which is that U.S. Islamophobes are getting in bed with some very unsavory people. If you concede that Fallaci and Phillips are guilty of &#8220;bigotry and Islamophobia,&#8221; isn&#8217;t this unquestionably more true of Dewinter and Wilders? If we are genuinely concerned to staunch the spread of radical Islam and defend &#8220;liberal values&#8221; in Europe, isn&#8217;t making common cause with bigots the worst possible way to do so? Making Wilders the face of the movement simply sends the message that it is not radical Islam but Islam as such that we see as the enemy, and seems like a surefire way to alienate the very people that we want to win over.</p>
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		<title>By: anon in dc</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103927</link>
		<dc:creator>anon in dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 02:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103927</guid>
		<description>Okay, duly read.  I&#039;m not especially persuaded; he cites a lot of academic studies which claim  things are ticky-boo, without going into any details.  I&#039;d be happy to believe  that Caldwell is way overstating the dangers, but would really need a more substantive argument.  I agree there is a lot of simple bigotry and Islamophobia in tracts  like Fallacci&#039;s and Melanie Phillips.  But what do you think when you read of the Danish cartoonist who need a panic button to call police in every room of his house (and which he had to use recently)?  If there was more intermarriage, that would point to an integration being assimilated.  I don&#039;t think there is much.  Of course, part of me would welcome a Europe that stood up to American foreign policy more vigorously. . .   but for European reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, duly read.  I&#8217;m not especially persuaded; he cites a lot of academic studies which claim  things are ticky-boo, without going into any details.  I&#8217;d be happy to believe  that Caldwell is way overstating the dangers, but would really need a more substantive argument.  I agree there is a lot of simple bigotry and Islamophobia in tracts  like Fallacci&#8217;s and Melanie Phillips.  But what do you think when you read of the Danish cartoonist who need a panic button to call police in every room of his house (and which he had to use recently)?  If there was more intermarriage, that would point to an integration being assimilated.  I don&#8217;t think there is much.  Of course, part of me would welcome a Europe that stood up to American foreign policy more vigorously. . .   but for European reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Luban</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103920</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Luban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103920</guid>
		<description>Oops, I posted the wrong link to Vaisse&#039;s piece. The real link is here: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies?print=yes&amp;hidecomments=yes&amp;page=full</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I posted the wrong link to Vaisse&#8217;s piece. The real link is here: <a href="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies?print=yes&#038;hidecomments=yes&#038;page=full" rel="nofollow">http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies?print=yes&#038;hidecomments=yes&#038;page=full</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Luban</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103919</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Luban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103919</guid>
		<description>Anon,
You make fair points -- although I would dispute the extent to which immigration is really causing a &quot;cultural revolution&quot;. (For a good rejoinder to a lot of the &quot;Eurabia&quot; hysteria, see this recent Foreign Policy article: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies)

My point is not that it&#039;s morally impermissible to be concerned about integration of Muslims in Europe, but that those who are so concerned should be very careful about who they get into bed with. A disconcerting number of prominent figures have either embraced the European neo-fascist right, or at least engaged in apologetics for them. (See Charles Johnson for more info on this.)

So as always I think that people who consider themselves defenders of &quot;liberal values&quot; should be wary of picking allies whose primary motivation is hatred of Muslims rather than any particular interest in liberal values as such. E.g. Wilders, who has been portrayed by his apologists as a &quot;free speech defender&quot; despite the fact that he wants to ban the Koran.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon,<br />
You make fair points &#8212; although I would dispute the extent to which immigration is really causing a &#8220;cultural revolution&#8221;. (For a good rejoinder to a lot of the &#8220;Eurabia&#8221; hysteria, see this recent Foreign Policy article: <a href="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies)" rel="nofollow">http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies)</a></p>
<p>My point is not that it&#8217;s morally impermissible to be concerned about integration of Muslims in Europe, but that those who are so concerned should be very careful about who they get into bed with. A disconcerting number of prominent figures have either embraced the European neo-fascist right, or at least engaged in apologetics for them. (See Charles Johnson for more info on this.)</p>
<p>So as always I think that people who consider themselves defenders of &#8220;liberal values&#8221; should be wary of picking allies whose primary motivation is hatred of Muslims rather than any particular interest in liberal values as such. E.g. Wilders, who has been portrayed by his apologists as a &#8220;free speech defender&#8221; despite the fact that he wants to ban the Koran.</p>
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		<title>By: anon in dc</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103906</link>
		<dc:creator>anon in dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103906</guid>
		<description>And please fix your software so it doesn&#039;t capitalize every word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And please fix your software so it doesn&#8217;t capitalize every word.</p>
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		<title>By: anon in dc</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103905</link>
		<dc:creator>anon in dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103905</guid>
		<description>Daniel, 
I would describe myself as someone strongly committed to a legit Palestinian state, opposed the Iraq war from the outset, and in favor of toning down the anti-Muslim rhetoric that drives much of the neocon world view and indeed American foreign policy.  
At the same time, it seems to me that European &quot;natives&quot; have a perfectly legitimate  right to worry about the scope of Muslim immigration, and to try to freeze it in order to attempt assimilate their existing Muslim populations.  It&#039;s certainly unfortunate that far right parties have been the first to take up this cry.  But because Le Pen or someone says the earth is round does not mean that the earth is flat.  
I&#039;ve met you, we know several people in common--and I don&#039;t want to get attacked as some sort of neo-fascist sympathizer.  But in your opinion (and I respect your opinion) is their a legitimate political space for people who are for justice in Israel/Palestine, against the neocon/neolib foreign policy project, but still opposed to a cultural revolution in Europe caused by immigration. It seems to me a perfectly sensible point of view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel,<br />
I would describe myself as someone strongly committed to a legit Palestinian state, opposed the Iraq war from the outset, and in favor of toning down the anti-Muslim rhetoric that drives much of the neocon world view and indeed American foreign policy.<br />
At the same time, it seems to me that European &#8220;natives&#8221; have a perfectly legitimate  right to worry about the scope of Muslim immigration, and to try to freeze it in order to attempt assimilate their existing Muslim populations.  It&#8217;s certainly unfortunate that far right parties have been the first to take up this cry.  But because Le Pen or someone says the earth is round does not mean that the earth is flat.<br />
I&#8217;ve met you, we know several people in common&#8211;and I don&#8217;t want to get attacked as some sort of neo-fascist sympathizer.  But in your opinion (and I respect your opinion) is their a legitimate political space for people who are for justice in Israel/Palestine, against the neocon/neolib foreign policy project, but still opposed to a cultural revolution in Europe caused by immigration. It seems to me a perfectly sensible point of view.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs Seeme Hasan</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103789</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs Seeme Hasan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103789</guid>
		<description>Thank You for the blog.As chairman of Muslims for America,the last few years I have been telling our leaders in Washington DC,exactly the same thing.
I have met so many people who dont like Muslims and feel equally prejudiced to Jews.
In some instances I thought their comments towards Jews were really harsher than the words they used for Muslims.
Muslims and Jews need to do more interfaith activities together and also try to teach the public at large tolerance to both Faiths.
I am very proud of people like Daniel Pearls father because they are doing exactly that.
To be honest I think most Americans,think Muslims and Jews are very similar.To be honest we are.Our Culture,outlook to life,faith and lifestyle is almost the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank You for the blog.As chairman of Muslims for America,the last few years I have been telling our leaders in Washington DC,exactly the same thing.<br />
I have met so many people who dont like Muslims and feel equally prejudiced to Jews.<br />
In some instances I thought their comments towards Jews were really harsher than the words they used for Muslims.<br />
Muslims and Jews need to do more interfaith activities together and also try to teach the public at large tolerance to both Faiths.<br />
I am very proud of people like Daniel Pearls father because they are doing exactly that.<br />
To be honest I think most Americans,think Muslims and Jews are very similar.To be honest we are.Our Culture,outlook to life,faith and lifestyle is almost the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Harrison</title>
		<link>http://www.lobelog.com/islamophobia-bad-for-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-103687</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lobelog.com/?p=466#comment-103687</guid>
		<description>This is a very interesting and important point. It&#039;s quite clear that the far, far right is largely anti-semitic. On the other hand, are you saying that the Gallup poll mentioned indicates that over 50 per cent of Americans are anti-semitic? I don&#039;t believe that&#039;s true, even though I think anti-semitism in the U.S. is increasing.

While U.S. neofascists are clearly anti-semitic, and while their numbers are increasing, they remain a tiny percentage of the U.S. population. The fact is that most non-Jewish Islamophobes in the U.S. are philo-semites -- that is, they support Israel and do not hate Jews. The overwhelming majority of American Christians are pro-Jewish and pro-Israel, and this is especially true of especially of Christians who are right wingers.

I am going to say one more time that it is quite possible to accept members of other &quot;communities&quot; (racial, ethnic or religious) as equals while at the same time wanting to maintain the cultural identity of one&#039;s homeland. I don&#039;t support the Zionist cause in Palestine because I believe it was wrong to deprive the Palestinians of land they had occupied for centuries. But do the Jews deserve a homeland, a place in which they can preserve and maintain their cultural heritage? I believe they do. In a world of perfect justice, that homeland would have been established in Austria or Bavaria after World War II. The victorious Allies should have forced Germany to absorb the population of one of these regions, and then turned the land over the Jews. I say this even though one of my grandfathers was a native of Bavaria.

Possibly the Jews would have found occupying Bavaria or Austria distasteful. I would then have offered them the state of Nevada as a place to settle in, just as the Mormons have Utah. I strongly believe the Jews deserve a homeland; I just don&#039;t think they deserved Palestine because they once lived there. After 1,300 years of occupancy the Arabs were entitled to stay on what had become their land.

Similarly, I think the peoples of Western Europe and America have a right to maintain the cultural integrity of the lands they have occupied for centuries. While it is clearly wrong to discriminate against citizens or resident aliens of any faith or ethnicity, there is nothing inherently wrong in setting limits to immigration. While I do not believe that U.S. courts would allow policies such as Switzerland has just enacted, or that France has had for decades, I fail to see why Western countries should accept Islamization without limit. Muslim lands are immensely large, and permit the full expression of Islamic culture. Just as Westerners resident in Islamic lands must accept certain limits on their behavior, so Muslims who settle in the West should respect the culture of their surroundings. If they find themselves, for whatever reasons, unable to do so, then they should return to a Muslim land.

&quot;The culture of a people is the blood of its being,&quot; Herder said. Every people, every culture has a right to maintain itself, as opposed to giving way to political correctness and the demands of others who assert overriding claims for their own culture. And a person can believe this without being an Islamophobe or an anti-semite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very interesting and important point. It&#8217;s quite clear that the far, far right is largely anti-semitic. On the other hand, are you saying that the Gallup poll mentioned indicates that over 50 per cent of Americans are anti-semitic? I don&#8217;t believe that&#8217;s true, even though I think anti-semitism in the U.S. is increasing.</p>
<p>While U.S. neofascists are clearly anti-semitic, and while their numbers are increasing, they remain a tiny percentage of the U.S. population. The fact is that most non-Jewish Islamophobes in the U.S. are philo-semites &#8212; that is, they support Israel and do not hate Jews. The overwhelming majority of American Christians are pro-Jewish and pro-Israel, and this is especially true of especially of Christians who are right wingers.</p>
<p>I am going to say one more time that it is quite possible to accept members of other &#8220;communities&#8221; (racial, ethnic or religious) as equals while at the same time wanting to maintain the cultural identity of one&#8217;s homeland. I don&#8217;t support the Zionist cause in Palestine because I believe it was wrong to deprive the Palestinians of land they had occupied for centuries. But do the Jews deserve a homeland, a place in which they can preserve and maintain their cultural heritage? I believe they do. In a world of perfect justice, that homeland would have been established in Austria or Bavaria after World War II. The victorious Allies should have forced Germany to absorb the population of one of these regions, and then turned the land over the Jews. I say this even though one of my grandfathers was a native of Bavaria.</p>
<p>Possibly the Jews would have found occupying Bavaria or Austria distasteful. I would then have offered them the state of Nevada as a place to settle in, just as the Mormons have Utah. I strongly believe the Jews deserve a homeland; I just don&#8217;t think they deserved Palestine because they once lived there. After 1,300 years of occupancy the Arabs were entitled to stay on what had become their land.</p>
<p>Similarly, I think the peoples of Western Europe and America have a right to maintain the cultural integrity of the lands they have occupied for centuries. While it is clearly wrong to discriminate against citizens or resident aliens of any faith or ethnicity, there is nothing inherently wrong in setting limits to immigration. While I do not believe that U.S. courts would allow policies such as Switzerland has just enacted, or that France has had for decades, I fail to see why Western countries should accept Islamization without limit. Muslim lands are immensely large, and permit the full expression of Islamic culture. Just as Westerners resident in Islamic lands must accept certain limits on their behavior, so Muslims who settle in the West should respect the culture of their surroundings. If they find themselves, for whatever reasons, unable to do so, then they should return to a Muslim land.</p>
<p>&#8220;The culture of a people is the blood of its being,&#8221; Herder said. Every people, every culture has a right to maintain itself, as opposed to giving way to political correctness and the demands of others who assert overriding claims for their own culture. And a person can believe this without being an Islamophobe or an anti-semite.</p>
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