Comments on: Hawks scramble to get on board with two-state solution http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/ Personality Blogs Fri, 3 Sep 2010 22:28:30 +0100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Mir J http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-50333 Mir J Tue, 19 May 2009 22:44:00 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-50333 The Balfour Declaration of 1917 predates the Treaty of Versailles, which was signed in 1919, not 1925. In any case, the former had to do with the self-determination of the Jewish people in Palestine, whereas the latter dealt with an end to WW1; where exactly is there any mention of Palestine?!. Finally, the implication is that today, self-determination of a constructed people (the "Palestinians") is more important that the self-determination of the Jewish People? Palestinian muslims have at least 22 countries to go to where their religion is the state religion, or, theirs is the majority population. Aside from Israel, the Jews have no such claim. It's amazing that people neither want the Jews living in their countries (look up ghettos, pogroms, inquisition, etc. and don't forget yellow stars on Jews who used to live in Yemen), nor do they want Jews to have their own country. Amazing. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 predates the Treaty of Versailles, which was signed in 1919, not 1925. In any case, the former had to do with the self-determination of the Jewish people in Palestine, whereas the latter dealt with an end to WW1; where exactly is there any mention of Palestine?!. Finally, the implication is that today, self-determination of a constructed people (the “Palestinians”) is more important that the self-determination of the Jewish People? Palestinian muslims have at least 22 countries to go to where their religion is the state religion, or, theirs is the majority population. Aside from Israel, the Jews have no such claim. It’s amazing that people neither want the Jews living in their countries (look up ghettos, pogroms, inquisition, etc. and don’t forget yellow stars on Jews who used to live in Yemen), nor do they want Jews to have their own country. Amazing.

]]> By: Mir J http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-50330 Mir J Tue, 19 May 2009 22:36:13 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-50330 What Two-State solution YOu mean the one that was rejected in 1947, which led to the 1948 war between the Arab States (formerly British/French mandate territories) and Israel? Do you mean, perhaps the Arab attack on Israel, again in 1967? Two states is a joke, and everyone but liberal/leftist bloggers know it. In 2000, Ehud Barak offered Arafat his own state in the West Bank, with a connection to Gaza and a shared capital of Jerusalem. Guess what happened? Arafat rejected it. Now, some of you will make excuses, but it's a fact that Israel offered the territory. It's undeniable that every time territory has been offered to an Arab or Palestinian entity, it's been rejected. Israel LEFT Gaza. It took down every settlement. But that's not enough. Palestinians still launched rockets into Israel. Furthermore, the PA/Hamas run government there destroyed every facet of "zionist" infrastructure, not to mention the synagogues. THAT is what happens when you give a Palestinian leader who hates Jews a slice of territory. And that's also why Netanyahu is smart to not agree to a two state solution until all the parameters, which were a part of Oslo '93, are actually fulfilled. How about if you give your 6 year old the keys to your car? It doesn't matter that they can't reach the petals, let alone took drivers ed. That's the same as giving the Palestinians a state. Until they can reach the pedals AND agree to learn the rules of the road, they politically do not deserve a state. What Two-State solution YOu mean the one that was rejected in 1947, which led to the 1948 war between the Arab States (formerly British/French mandate territories) and Israel? Do you mean, perhaps the Arab attack on Israel, again in 1967? Two states is a joke, and everyone but liberal/leftist bloggers know it. In 2000, Ehud Barak offered Arafat his own state in the West Bank, with a connection to Gaza and a shared capital of Jerusalem. Guess what happened? Arafat rejected it. Now, some of you will make excuses, but it’s a fact that Israel offered the territory. It’s undeniable that every time territory has been offered to an Arab or Palestinian entity, it’s been rejected. Israel LEFT Gaza. It took down every settlement. But that’s not enough. Palestinians still launched rockets into Israel. Furthermore, the PA/Hamas run government there destroyed every facet of “zionist” infrastructure, not to mention the synagogues. THAT is what happens when you give a Palestinian leader who hates Jews a slice of territory. And that’s also why Netanyahu is smart to not agree to a two state solution until all the parameters, which were a part of Oslo ‘93, are actually fulfilled. How about if you give your 6 year old the keys to your car? It doesn’t matter that they can’t reach the petals, let alone took drivers ed. That’s the same as giving the Palestinians a state. Until they can reach the pedals AND agree to learn the rules of the road, they politically do not deserve a state.

]]> By: Jon Harrison http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-49304 Jon Harrison Tue, 12 May 2009 12:47:09 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-49304 Scott, I agree with you. If you were familiar with my writings in Liberty, for example, you'd know that I am a very strong critic of Israel. My personal belief is that a Jewish state should have been created in Austria or Bavaria after WWII. Or, alternatively, that we should have given Nevada to the Jews, just as the Mormons have Utah. If it were up to me I would stop supporting Israel tomorrow -- not, however, because I love the Palestinians, but because I think it's in the US interest to do so. I personally care nothing for Arabs or Israelis, and I oppose our being involved in their affairs. I hope you're right about the possibility of a different dynamic, assuming Israel mends its ways. However, I don't think Israel will change. Further, I don't believe Palestinians who would favor a rapprochement will ever be able to win out against the hard-liners. But who knws? Anything's possible. I certainly hope they learn to live together over there; maybe someday they will. Scott, I agree with you. If you were familiar with my writings in Liberty, for example, you’d know that I am a very strong critic of Israel. My personal belief is that a Jewish state should have been created in Austria or Bavaria after WWII. Or, alternatively, that we should have given Nevada to the Jews, just as the Mormons have Utah. If it were up to me I would stop supporting Israel tomorrow — not, however, because I love the Palestinians, but because I think it’s in the US interest to do so. I personally care nothing for Arabs or Israelis, and I oppose our being involved in their affairs.

I hope you’re right about the possibility of a different dynamic, assuming Israel mends its ways. However, I don’t think Israel will change. Further, I don’t believe Palestinians who would favor a rapprochement will ever be able to win out against the hard-liners. But who knws? Anything’s possible. I certainly hope they learn to live together over there; maybe someday they will.

]]> By: scott http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-49105 scott Sun, 10 May 2009 21:51:55 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-49105 Jon, I disagree. If Israel ever set her borders and kept within them like most countries, we'd see a different dynamic I think. If Israel were not expanding, seizing homes, farms and water on a daily basis perhaps they could let bygones be bygones. I know many Muslims, many Palestinians who've expressed or agree they wish Israel stood as a progressive and democratic example to shame the dictators that reign over them. Jon, don't you think the expansion of settlements, the harassment and blockade of Palestinians is atrocious incitement? These ARE assaults of War under the UN's/Geneva conventions. I'd say the Palestinians have show remarkable restraint. Jon, I disagree. If Israel ever set her borders and kept within them like most countries, we’d see a different dynamic I think. If Israel were not expanding, seizing homes, farms and water on a daily basis perhaps they could let bygones be bygones.

I know many Muslims, many Palestinians who’ve expressed or agree they wish Israel stood as a progressive and democratic example to shame the dictators that reign over them.

Jon, don’t you think the expansion of settlements, the harassment and blockade of Palestinians is atrocious incitement? These ARE assaults of War under the UN’s/Geneva conventions. I’d say the Palestinians have show remarkable restraint.

]]> By: Jon Harrison http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-49048 Jon Harrison Sat, 09 May 2009 21:43:12 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-49048 The Palestinians will never reconcile themselves to two states. They may accept a two-state solution as a tactical maneuver, but they will always want to return to a unitary Palestine. Perhaps future generations on both sides will come to accept one state in which Muslims, Jews and Christians can live together with equal rights. A Jewish-dominated state amounts to a foreign body in the modern Middle East. It will eventually disappear -- peacefully, one hopes. The Palestinians will never reconcile themselves to two states. They may accept a two-state solution as a tactical maneuver, but they will always want to return to a unitary Palestine. Perhaps future generations on both sides will come to accept one state in which Muslims, Jews and Christians can live together with equal rights. A Jewish-dominated state amounts to a foreign body in the modern Middle East. It will eventually disappear — peacefully, one hopes.

]]> By: Peter Jones http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-48910 Peter Jones Fri, 08 May 2009 22:56:50 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-48910 The creation of the Sate of Israel in 1948 constitued a betrayal of the Palestinian people. Those who doubt this statement are referred to the provisions of the 1925 Treaty of Versailles which specifically set up a protectorate for the Palestionain people. It is time for the world to recognize this betyrayal and to insist Israel pursue the only reasonable soluition to the existing dilemna before Israel's hard line ambitions lead us into an impossible conflagration. The creation of the Sate of Israel in 1948 constitued a betrayal of the Palestinian people. Those who doubt this statement are referred to the provisions of the 1925 Treaty of Versailles which specifically set up a protectorate for the Palestionain people. It is time for the world to recognize this betyrayal and to insist Israel pursue the only reasonable soluition to the existing dilemna before Israel’s hard line ambitions lead us into an impossible conflagration.

]]> By: MalleusMaleficarum http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-48905 MalleusMaleficarum Fri, 08 May 2009 19:57:36 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-48905 It is easy to look at the past and predict a future will not present any change. What is taking place is distinctly different from anything that has happened since Jimmy Carter. Obama is saying, "Enough is enough." The USA simply cannot and should not put up with any more Israeli intransigence. The threats to both American and Israeli national security are now infinite. Since his speech to AIPAC last year when he was criticized by the left for being too obsequious -- he supported the two state solution, the elimination of travel barriers for Palestinians and the economic development of Palestine. In his inaugural address, Obama announced a new era of US relations with the Muslim World, and at the State Department only a few days later -- he spoke in favor of human right for Palestinians. That much we know -- what we do not know is what has been said by George Mitchell and Hillary Clinton to their counterparts in Israel -- that dialogue is what is driving the obvious changes in Israeli policy. Avigdor Lieberman touted war with Iran until two weeks ago, when he inexplicably changed his tune to stating that Afghanistan was the primary threat to Israel. The Israeli press is filled with stories about Obama's changes in foreign policy vis a vis Israel and the approach to the Palestinians. Rahm Emanuel has been quoted in print in Jerusalem that there will be a two state peace settlement within four years -- just in time for Obama's re-election campaign. The demands of power are falling on the nascent government of Israel -- and while the outward appearances to the public may seem like nothing is changing -- peace negotiations based on Obama's forthcoming plan will probably start in the very near future -- say later this summer or in the fall. Then there are the secret operations involving many cases of Israeli espionage and financial chicanery that are being swept under the carpet for public consumption but are painful for the Israelis -- US financial collapses that involved substantial transfers to Israeli bank accounts; the Madoff scandal and the exodus of many Israeli assets from official positions that are being quietly closed over in preparation for a calm meeting in the Oval Office between Obama and Netanyahu -- during which Bibi will be well prepared to do a lot of boot-licking. It is easy to look at the past and predict a future will not present any change. What is taking place is distinctly different from anything that has happened since Jimmy Carter. Obama is saying, “Enough is enough.” The USA simply cannot and should not put up with any more Israeli intransigence. The threats to both American and Israeli national security are now infinite. Since his speech to AIPAC last year when he was criticized by the left for being too obsequious — he supported the two state solution, the elimination of travel barriers for Palestinians and the economic development of Palestine. In his inaugural address, Obama announced a new era of US relations with the Muslim World, and at the State Department only a few days later — he spoke in favor of human right for Palestinians. That much we know — what we do not know is what has been said by George Mitchell and Hillary Clinton to their counterparts in Israel — that dialogue is what is driving the obvious changes in Israeli policy. Avigdor Lieberman touted war with Iran until two weeks ago, when he inexplicably changed his tune to stating that Afghanistan was the primary threat to Israel. The Israeli press is filled with stories about Obama’s changes in foreign policy vis a vis Israel and the approach to the Palestinians. Rahm Emanuel has been quoted in print in Jerusalem that there will be a two state peace settlement within four years — just in time for Obama’s re-election campaign. The demands of power are falling on the nascent government of Israel — and while the outward appearances to the public may seem like nothing is changing — peace negotiations based on Obama’s forthcoming plan will probably start in the very near future — say later this summer or in the fall. Then there are the secret operations involving many cases of Israeli espionage and financial chicanery that are being swept under the carpet for public consumption but are painful for the Israelis — US financial collapses that involved substantial transfers to Israeli bank accounts; the Madoff scandal and the exodus of many Israeli assets from official positions that are being quietly closed over in preparation for a calm meeting in the Oval Office between Obama and Netanyahu — during which Bibi will be well prepared to do a lot of boot-licking.

]]> By: Charles http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-48903 Charles Fri, 08 May 2009 19:09:39 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-48903 Richard Vajs comes close to the best solution for the Settlements as well as the Palestinian right of return. Here it is. The Settlers can remain Citizens of Israel and be Residents in Palestine. The returning Palestinian refugees can be Citizens of Palestine and Residents in Israel. They will vote in their own elections, as an American who resides in Canada or Mexico can still vote in the US elections. This preserves the Jewish nature of Israel, and does not require a single settler to move. Security can be done jointly by Israeli and Palestinian police and military for a 10 or 20 year transition period. Jerusalem is a international city and jointly Capital of both States. Jews can buy land and settle anywhere in Palestine/Judea-Samaria they want, and Palestinians can return to Haifa and wherever else they choose. The US and International community will help enforce this and pay for new homes and construction. There. Done. Got the will to make it happen? Richard Vajs comes close to the best solution for the Settlements as well as the Palestinian right of return. Here it is. The Settlers can remain Citizens of Israel and be Residents in Palestine. The returning Palestinian refugees can be Citizens of Palestine and Residents in Israel. They will vote in their own elections, as an American who resides in Canada or Mexico can still vote in the US elections. This preserves the Jewish nature of Israel, and does not require a single settler to move. Security can be done jointly by Israeli and Palestinian police and military for a 10 or 20 year transition period. Jerusalem is a international city and jointly Capital of both States. Jews can buy land and settle anywhere in Palestine/Judea-Samaria they want, and Palestinians can return to Haifa and wherever else they choose. The US and International community will help enforce this and pay for new homes and construction. There. Done. Got the will to make it happen?

]]> By: TutuG http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-48882 TutuG Fri, 08 May 2009 12:18:04 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-48882 I remember Menachem Begin’s farewell speech as the Israeli prime minister, which went something like – you go on negotiating as well as building settlements, what else there is to do? This has been Israel’s policy since Begin and only James Baker tried to put a stop to it. Plus ca change… I remember Menachem Begin’s farewell speech as the Israeli prime minister, which went something like – you go on negotiating as well as building settlements, what else there is to do? This has been Israel’s policy since Begin and only James Baker tried to put a stop to it. Plus ca change…

]]> By: richard vajs http://www.lobelog.com/hawks-scramble-to-get-on-board-with-two-state-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-48879 richard vajs Fri, 08 May 2009 11:45:26 +0000 http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=249#comment-48879 The Likud wants the settlements to be a "fact on the ground", the removal of which would be too expensive to be practical. I say leave the settlements be, re-establish the 1967 borders and let the "settlers" be Palestinian citizens, paying taxes, etc. That way they can stay on their sacred ground if they so wish. If they choose, they can move back to Israel or Brooklyn from whence they came. Of course, they may have a problem coming up with a legitimate deed if they want to sell out. Their howls of outrage will be heard on other planets. The Likud wants the settlements to be a “fact on the ground”, the removal of which would be too expensive to be practical. I say leave the settlements be, re-establish the 1967 borders and let the “settlers” be Palestinian citizens, paying taxes, etc. That way they can stay on their sacred ground if they so wish. If they choose, they can move back to Israel or Brooklyn from whence they came. Of course, they may have a problem coming up with a legitimate deed if they want to sell out. Their howls of outrage will be heard on other planets.

]]>